Dear Natural England

16 Replies to “Dear Natural England”

1. Nice

2. Being a dog owner large tracts of the peak district are out of bounds all year round if I want to walk with the dogs. A local grouse shoot on West Nab placed signs last year which added a dog ban where there isn’t one! I reported this to English Nature who confirmed the signs are illegal but the signs are still there a year later. In fact there are several more. I came across similar signs stating no dogs on Widdal Fell in the dales having checked beforehand that there were no dog restrictions before driving up there. Seems these moorland managers have no regard for the public and English Nature aren’t much better.

3. From what I remember from the training we undertook for Open Access vol duties it is the estates that apply to NE for closure date out of the 30 some they are allowed. These cannot be Sundays or Bank Holidays. In our local area (Nidderdale) shoots seemed to pick more closure dates in nesting times. There are supposed to be maps/notices at all access points but that is of little help if you have travelled miles to get there.

   1. Pete S – many thanks. I believe, but am not sure, that most estates use up their 30-day allowance of closure dates in the nesting season (as you say) but that shooting days are on top of that time on H&S reasons? Maybe? It isn’t clear to me – and it certainly isn’t clear to me which days i should avoid because of shooting on my PEak District visits…

4. I didn’t realise they had closing dates during the breeding season, that’ll be when criminality is at it’s peak.

   1. Mac – could be, could be. Linear rights of way still open – this is just open access.

5. Swaledale wise most (if not all?) closure dates are in the nesting season. These closures only affect land designated as open access land and do not affect rights of way i.e. footpaths and bridlepaths.

   Dogs can (& usually are) denied access to grouse moors (The CROW act states….You can exclude people with dogs from: a field of up to 15 hectares used for lambing for one period of up to 6 weeks each calendar year & land managed as a grouse moor for up to 5 years at a time, except along public rights of way)

   Moors are not closed round here on shoot days and you are free to wander about as far as I’m aware.

6. Once you’ve selected the most interesting route and date for a walk, can we all come?

7. England really needs full right to roam legislation.

   I do have some sympathy for the no dogs thing though; if more dog owners kept their animals leashed then I wouldn’t, but too many people let their dogs off the leash when it is just not safe (for the dog and the wildlife) to do so. #RememberFenton

   1. England needs vicarious liability as well please IMHO?

      1. Vicarious liability sounds good, but makes very little difference up here, ad proving criminality is hard. It also does nothing to change the fact that many of the damaging practices (Muirburn, killing “allowable” vermin) are completely legal. There is only one real solution.

8. When open access first came in as Pete S states estaes in Nidderdale used their closure days to keep folk off in the breeding season. this was for two reasons, one to “protect the nesting grouse” and probably yes to get rid of some of their predators ! and 2 to screw up open access as in this area it came in in spring. They also used shoot security to persuade you not to venture on to moors being shot, entirely illegally. I was stopped driving down the road we filmed off Mark and told the chap concerned that if he didn’t get out of the way I would call the police as he had no right at all. They lat me pass.They assume now if they are shooting you will polite and wait for the drive to finish before walking! perhaps you won’t.

9. just had a look at the Natural resources Wales version of the map. Just one site in the whole of Wales closed to dogs for the benefit of grouse.

   1. Actually as a birder and wildlife lover despite my opposition to driven grouse shootings poor land practices and illegal activities I along with lots of colleagues are very happy that open access in lots of areas does not apply to dogs, especially in areas containing lots of ground nesting birds. A study did show that wildlife was much more disturbed by dogs than people. I deride and deplore lots of things on grouse moors, in some ways all the things that get them called grouse moors but keeping dogs off is not one of them and I am not alone.

      1. We should be able to take our dogs anywhere. so long as we follow the law.
         “You must keep your dog on a lead no more than 2 metres long on open access land:

         #between 1 March and 31 July – to protect ground-nesting birds
         #at all times around livestock”

         https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-your-right-to-roam.

         So as you can see, the law already includes provision for protecting ground nesting birds from disturbance by dogs by establishing that dog owners should keep them on lead at those times of year where they are most likely to cause a disturbance.

         Here is the thing though, surely a dog exclusion on a grouse moor should apply to ALL dogs. That means that if your shooting, you cannot take dogs with you to flush or drive (depending on the type of shooting) your quarry.

         1. “You must keep your dog on a lead no more than 2 metres long on open access land.” that is fine Antony, in fact it is the legal definition of a dog under control. Yet how many people do it even where signage is quite clear that all dogs must be thus controlled, many in my experience are not on a lead. When you point this out all you get is abuse. I walked into a hide with a friend the other week where there are quite large signs saying no dogs in the hide and was immediately confronted by a yapping snarling terrier. On pointing out that it should not be there I got some feeble excuse.
            As to grouse moors the exclusion applies to visiting dogs not dogs working on the moor during a shoot or for that matter gathering sheep.

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