Inspired by the Revive launch on Tuesday evening.
[registration_form]by Mr Carbo
15 Replies to “by Mr Carbo”
Comments are closed.
Standing up for Nature
Standing up for Nature
Inspired by the Revive launch on Tuesday evening.
[registration_form]Comments are closed.
I’ve never been a fan of licensing shooting estates ( I’d prefer a ban but accept licensing may be a necessary step on the way) except if it follows this logic:- if there should be Golden Eagles* and there aren’t or they keep failing to breed in suspicious circumstances. Then no licence to shoot on that estate until things change.
* substitute Hen Harrier, Peregrine, Goshawk, Short-eared Owl, White-tailed Eagle, Wild Cat, Pine Marten etc. as necessary.
Make it in the interests of the estates that these thing thrive!
What a crazy and totally misleading poster Mark. Firstly since managed grouse moors were conceived mountain hares have always been managed which ultimately keeps their population healthy. Have you ever witnessed Mark years when numbers have been so high that disease kicks in and you find carcasses everywhere? Pretty disturbing to say the least.
Secondly the Golden Eagle population has without doubt risen significantly in such a short space of time from 442 breeding pairs in 2003 to 508 in 2015. Also if we could have added in around another say 60 young eagles which were sent to Northern Ireland to starve, etc in this time frame our current breeding population could have been even higher. Thirdly why would any managed grouse moor owner want to eradicate our golden eagles primary food source when ultimately the end result would be even greater losses of red grouse?
Mike – you do talk some tosh!
You’ve seen the graph of Mountain Hare numbers on grouse moors and nearby montane habitat in the published paper? That’s the published paper entitled ‘Seven decades of mountain hare counts show severe declines where high-yield recreational game bird hunting is practised’. You can find it here https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1365-2664.13235 If you read it then you’ll see the two graphs reproduced here https://markavery.info/2018/08/14/mountain-hares-close-to-extinction-on-ne-scotland-grouse-moors/
As far as Golden Eagles are concerned you should notice that the latest survey (which you quote) revealed (not that it was a great surprise to anyone) that ‘Golden eagles also continue to be absent in many parts of the eastern Highlands. Less than one third of the traditional ‘home ranges’ in this area were occupied by a pair of eagles and no eagles were recorded at all in over 30% of them, despite the fact that these should be very productive landscapes for these birds. Many of the vacant territories in this area are on ground managed intensively for driven grouse shooting and in recent years, four eagles fitted with satellite tags have been found illegally killed in the central and eastern Highlands’
Read more at https://www.rspb.org.uk/about-the-rspb/about-us/media-centre/press-releases/welcome-rise-in-scotlands-golden-eagle-population-according-to-fourth-national-survey#UWlV9BXzLzjBS24V.99
So your two points are tosh.
Mark, please could you kindly give me a response to my third point so that I could perhaps collate a single reply to all my points made above. Apart from reading and writing about managed grouse moors how much experience do you actually have out in the field especially in Scotland?
Mike – that was the toshiest point of all.
If you were a landowner who doesn’t want eagles then killing eagles and their food supply seems like a belt and braces approach doesn’t it.
You could read Fighting for Birds to gen up on my ecological experience, quite a bit of which was gained in Scotland and quite a lot of it on moorlands. But even if it weren’t, my previous response shows that your comment was poorly thought through.
Just as a matter of interest WHAT experience ‘out in the field’ do you want Mark or any of us to have of ‘managed grouse moors’? Is it the heather and blanket bog burning? Is it the slaughter of hares so that we can witness the gun-handling expertise of the shooters? Should we walk in line with the guns on the day to see how it is done? Is it the first hand experience of the eradication of any naturally occurring predator which could conceivably be a threat to the precious Red Grouse which, by the way, could be argued to no longer be truly ‘wild’ due to the interference of it’s natural history by those who profit by killing for fun! Do you want us all to get down and dirty on the ground with the keepers and set traps, snares and poison? WHAT is it we are all missing that the initiated apparently know and understand and the rest of us so called ‘townies’ are missing? And before you have a go at me just know that I’ve spent my life shooting and watched a ‘pastime’ evolve into an abhorrent industry! And I have done my fair share of heather moorland conservation! So please enlighten us as to what we need to experience so that we can understand.
Mike re your point about the 60 golden eagles that were supposedly sent to Ireland to starve you have just shown your inability to process facts properly and in fact if we were cynical suggest you just re-spout propaganda from the estates. For a start 53, not 60, eagles were released between 2001 and 2009. To get your other facts straight on this go to the real experts and read this SNH review of the Irish Golden Eagle reintroduction – https://raptorpersecutionscotland.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/irishgoldeneagleproject_review-2009.pdf
It’s a fascinating read. Far from being killed by the translocation a lot of these birds would otherwise have been doomed. Each bird taken was the second chick in the nest, in approximately 50% of cases the second chick dies. The birds were also taken from eastern Scotland in areas where although the habitat should be excellent for golden eagles the majority of territories are empty. Even if these chicks had fledged they were likely to ‘disappear’ at a later date.
Of course translocating birds doesn’t make them immortal any more than sat tagging does and first year birds have a naturally high mortality rate so inevitably a fair few were going to die there no matter what, but the report believes that at the time of writing 15 to 20 young eagles were still alive – many of them would not have got that far if they hadn’t been translocated. So your 60 birds sent to starve point is complete crap as usual. Of course being a genuine conservation project with the involvement of the RSPB this was always going to be the target for the bile from a certain section of the field sports community. What’s really remarkable about the report for me considering it is a SNH one is that it comes out with direct, and justified, criticism of the SGA. Here are the second and fourth paragraphs from page 48.
‘The Project team notes with dismay that there have been several inaccurate pieces of media coverage, prompted by the SGA, in the Scotsman, Argyll News, the Strathspey Herald, Shooting Times and elsewhere commenting that several Scottish Golden Eagles had been found poisoned in Ireland and several have died in captivity, and post mortems were not carried out on recovered corpses. As the Review Group has been informed, these reports are misleading and downright inaccurate.’
‘The Project Manager has also developed an excellent working relationship with the National Association of Regional Gun Clubs, giving presentations at their Donegal and Mayo county Executive meetings for example. Indeed, Lorcan O Toole has been invited to give a key note address to the national AGM of NARGC in Donegal in October 2009, as the Donegal county executive celebrate its 50th anniversary. Again, contrary to unfounded comments by the SGA, the Golden Eagle Project enjoys widespread support among the farming and shooting communities in Donegal and beyond.’
What have you got to say about that Mike? Are you going to admit you were wrong and make an apology to all those GENUINE raptor workers whose efforts you’ve unjustly denigrated? They say you judge a man by his friends, I’m so glad that you’re not one of mine – the Angus Glens Moorland Group are welcome to you.
Come on out, Mr Groves. Are the falsehoods that you’ve posted the result of ignorance, or were you just lying?
Mark, We have a thriving population of mountain hare (and Golden Eagles) in the Angus Glens however they are also affected by a gut parasite, Trichostrongylosis retortaeformis, which causes similar cyclical effects on population numbers as strongyle worms in red grouse. https://www.gwct.org.uk/research/species/mammals/mountain-hare/
Extremely difficult mammal to survey and count. However hopefully new research will help provide a clear and more accurate number of mountain hares on both managed and non managed moors? https://www.snhpresscentre.com/news/new-research-determines-the-best-ways-to-count-scottish-mountain-hares
Les, for your info the Cain and Abel effect seen in young golden eagles usually kicks in within the first few days/weeks of life. Once they are passed this very young stage most would hopefully potentially make it unless obvious severe weather conditions/food shortage kicks in. In recent years triplets have fledged twice by different pairs in the Angus Glens, an extremely rare event and highlights very healthy prey supply.
Have you managed to see your first ever Golden Eagle yet Les? Due to your derogatory attacks I’ve sure you’ll not be surprised that I’ve withdrawn my previous invitation to take you out in the field and show you these magnificent raptors. The Angus Glens have recently been recognised as one of nine Temporary Settlement Areas (TSA’s) for young golden eagles. This would fit in perfectly with why we are seeing so many young eagles in this region with satellite harness problems.
Coop, unlike many people I don’t tell lies or make up fictitious stories.
So those Eagles with harness problems, they’ll no doubt be the ones killed by your friends the keepers to protect them from further harness problems.
The Angus Glens remain a black hole for many raptors including but not exclusively Hen Harriers, Golden Eagles and WT eagles. You are an apologist or the unacceptable moorland management in that area, your membership of the Angus Glens Moorland Group tells us all we need to know about you.
Read the report Mike – I doubt you’ll take in what you don’t want to, but giving your wee fingers a rest from the keyboard and giving your thought processes a bit of a chance instead will be good for you. I could point out that high chick survival rates in the Angus Glens could very well be down to little competition for food re so many empty golden eagle territories, the good times don’t last so long for golden eagles there do they Mike? It’s not what’s there it’s what should be there and isn’t, approx. two thirds of the eagle pairs missing and as for hen harriers……. Want to take back what you said about 60 eagles sent to Ireland to starve, was load of crap wasn’t it and a gross insult to the people who slogged their guts out only to be denigrated by the SGA which either has problems with basic literacy or deliberately misreported? Surprised you’re so thin skinned Mike considering how derogatory you’ve been about GENUINE raptor workers.
Not too disappointed to miss out on your glorious company in the glorious Angus Glens TBH, but bloody shame my wee nephew in Currie never got a chance to see Fred, I’ve actually walked in the same area in which he ‘disappeared’, never seen so much as a buzzard there. A golden eagle turns up, ‘disappears’ and it transpires that there’s a grouse moor in the vicinity – this will be how many people became aware that grouse shooting actually takes place so close to Edinburgh, but they would have been a lot more interested in seeing a golden eagle I can assure you.
“Coop, unlike many people I don’t tell lies or make up fictitious stories.”
So you’re just ignorant then?
Let’s just refresh ourselves (courtesy of RPUK) on the track record of the Angus Glens….
2004 May, near Edzell: long-eared owl and two short-eared owls starved to death in crow cage trap. No prosecution.
2004 May, Invermark Estate: peregrine nest destroyed. No prosecution.
2006 March, Glenogil Estate: poisoned rabbit bait (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2006 April, Easter Ogil: poisoned buzzard (Alphachloralose). No prosecution.
2006 April, Easter Ogil: poisoned tawny owl (Alphachloralose). No prosecution.
2006 May, Glenogil Estate: poisoned rabbit bait (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2006 June, Glenogil Estate: poisoned woodpigeon bait (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2006 June, Glenogil Estate: Traces of Carbofuran found in estate vehicles & on equipment during police search. No prosecution. Estate owner had £107k withdrawn from his farm subsidy payments. This was being appealed, but it is not known how this was resolved.
2006 July, Millden Estate; poisoned sheepdog (Lindane). No prosecution.
2007 November, Glenogil Estate: Disappearance of radio-tagged white-tailed eagle ‘Bird N’ coincides with tip off to police that bird allegedly been shot. No further transmissions or sightings of the bird.
2008 May, ‘Nr Noranside’: poisoned white-tailed eagle ‘White G’ (Carbofuran, Isophenfos, Bendiocarb). No prosecution.
2008 May, ‘Nr Noranside’: poisoned buzzard (Bendiocarb). No prosecution.
2008 May, ‘Nr Noranside’: poisoned mountain hare bait (Carbofuran, Isophenfos, Bendiocarb). No prosecution.
2008 May, Glenogil Estate: 32 x poisoned meat baits on fenceposts (Carbofuran, Isophenfos, Bendiocarb). No prosecution.
2008 October, ‘Glenogil Estate: poisoned meat bait on fencepost (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2009 March, Glenogil Estate: poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2009 March, Glenogil Estate: poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2009 April, Millden Estate: poisoned buzzard (Alphachloralose). No prosecution.
2009 July, Millden Estate: poisoned golden eagle ‘Alma’ (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2009 August, Glenogil Estate: poisoned white-tailed eagle “89” (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2010 May, ‘Nr Noranside’: poisoned red kite (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2010 September, Glenogil Estate: poisoned buzzard (Chloralose). No prosecution.
2010 October, Glenogil Estate: poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2010 October, Glenogil Estate: poisoned pigeon bait (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2010 October, Glenogil Estate: poisoned pigeon bait (Carbofuran). No prosecution.
2011 February, Airlie Estate: buzzard caught in illegal crow trap. (see below)
2011 March, Airlie Estate: 3 x buzzard caught in illegal crow trap. Prosecution (!) but dropped after statement from suspect given to SSPCA deemed inadmissible.
2011 April, Millden Estate: shot buzzard. No prosecution.
2012 April, ‘Nr Noranside’: Remains of buzzard found beside pheasant pen. Suspicious death.
2011 June, Rottal & Tarabuckle Estate: dead kestrel inside crow cage trap. No prosecution.
2012 February, ‘Nr Edzell’: spring-trapped buzzard. No prosecution.
2012 February, ‘Nr Bridgend’: remains of buzzard found under a rock. Suspicious death.
2012 May, Millden Estate: satellite-tagged golden eagle seemingly caught in spring trap, then apparently uplifted overnight and dumped on Deeside with two broken legs & left to die. No prosecution.
2012 May, Glen Esk: disappearance of sat-tagged red kite. No further transmissions or sightings of bird.
2013 January, Invermark Estate: white-tailed eagle nest tree felled. No prosecution.
2013 June, Glen Ogil: shot buzzard. No prosecution.
2013 July, Glen Moy: illegal hawk trap. No prosecution.
2013 September, nr Edzell: unset spring trap next to bait. No prosecution.
2013 November, Glen Lethnot: poisoned golden eagle ‘Fearnan’. No prosecution.
2014 August & September, Glenogil Estate: alleged snaring offences. Prosecution dropped.
2014 October, Nathro: shot buzzard. No prosecution.
2015 July, Brewland Estate: illegal pole trap. Prosecution dropped.
2017 October, Angus Glens grouse moor: alleged suspicious incident (details not public), ongoing investigation
2018 March, Angus Glens grouse moor: alleged suspicious incident (details not public), ongoing investigation
In addition to the above incidents, there hasn’t been a single successful hen harrier breeding attempt in the Angus Glens since 2006, and the area is also one of the areas identified as a hotspot for satellite-tagged golden eagles that have ‘disappeared’ in suspicious circumstances. In addition to the eagles that have ‘disappeared’ here, and the ones that have been found illegally poisoned or illegally trapped, a further golden eagle tag was found on a grouse moor here, “whose housing had been stabbed by a sharp implement and whose harness had been cut cleanly by a sharp instrument”, according to the golden eagle satellite tag review.
People who are addicted to alcohol or drugs and change their ways are praised as heroes by society. However if a managed grouse moor e.g. Glen Ogil changes its owner and gamekeepers and becomes law abiding it still gets labelled by historic data as a bad estate. Why no positive recognition for this progressive change?
http://davidadamsketchbook.blogspot.com/2018/08/raptorama-in-ogil.html?m=0
http://davidadamsketchbook.blogspot.com/2017/01/raptorphilia-in-glen-ogil.html?m=0
Time to move forward perhaps and recognise that the Angus Glens are no longer a hotspot for persecution and that attitudes have changed for the best?
Wow, that’s a new one! A piece of land makes a concious decision to change its owner and gamekeepers!
Of course, it’s easy to talk a good game, while still benefitting from the crimes of your neighbours. The arrogant degenerates involved in DGS have had 64 years to put their house in order, but all they come up with is flannel like this. No wonder they’re sinking in a cesspit of their own making.