Now I’ve been a wildlife freak almost all of my 72 years and for much of my working life, it was part, even if sometimes tangentially of what I did. My main interest is/was raptors but not to the exclusion of anything else, if it flies, crawls, walks, swims, slithers or just flowers I’m interested and I take photographs. I’ve also been a bird ringer for 50 years. I’ve fished (and still do occasionally), shot (no longer, except with an air rifle), been a beater in both grouse and pheasant shooting (not for 30 years and wouldn’t now), worked for RSPB, for a Wildlife Trust, a National Park and an agency of DEFRA, before all that I worked for 10 years in the chemical industry, I’ve been retired now for six years.
WHAT SHOOTING AND THE ECOLOGICALLY ILLITERATE SAY ON SOCIAL MEDIA
It’s odd but I suppose to some not that surprising that on social media the attacks on some aspects of our wildlife go on unabated and often unchallenged. I find myself on occasion challenging those very things as it seems to me at least that those putting forward the unscientific, prejudiced or fact free or wrong views should be both challenged and more importantly a factually correct view put forward.
It amazes me what some people will say or believe in support of their views, it sometimes seems to go against basic education, logic, common sense never mind the accepted science of the day, they are sometimes so prejudice against some organisations, usually RSPB, Wild Justice, BTO or individuals notably Chris Packham, raptor workers or conservationists it defies belief. Some are so blinkered they will admit no other facts or point of view, yet for me at least their view should be challenged in a hope of getting the, or a more, correct view out there, although it’s often like banging your head on the hard and immovable.
Where does this happen, most of my experience is on Facebook but it is almost certainly all over social media.
A classic that appears ad nauseam whenever there is any discussion about grouse moors is this
“Grouse moors have more red listed birds than RSPB reserves.”
I don’t think claimants realise there are 224 RSPB reserves with a huge diversity of habitats and red listed birds breeding. It is of course utter drivel but adherents to this view are usually stupidly adamant.
“Grouse moors are good for raptors, especially Hen Harriers, which are increasing with help from gamekeepers”
Often followed up by
“how many breed on RSPB reserves compared to grouse moors”
Readers of this blog will know what a lie the first is as gamekeepers appear to have spent most of the time since Hen Harrier recolonisation in the 50s and 60s trying to exterminate them again in England. Even since the shooting organisations all said persecution was totally unacceptable 95 Hen Harriers have been killed or “ disappeared” on or close to grouse moors since 2018. Hardly helping them is it. One should also remember that THE HEN HARRIER POPULATION IN ENGLAND IS AT JUST 15% OF WHAT IT SHOULD BE.
The United Utilities Estate in Bowland has RSPB wardens during the summer protecting its Hen Harrier nests, just as if this was an RSPB reserve (which it certainly isn’t). In 2022 there was a Hen Harrier nest for every c900 ha with a failure rate of just 15%. Now let’s look at other grouse moors performance, they hosted a nest every 25,300 ha with a failure rate of 45%. So 30 times poorer with a much higher failure rate and nowhere near good enough.
The only English RSPB reserve with breeding Hen Harriers is Geltsdale which in good years has hosted 3 nest attempts on 2,131 ha. Now the Moorland Association claims 348030 ha. is managed by members. So if Hen Harriers did as well on their members’ grouse moors as at Geltsdale there would be 490 nesting attempts on these grouse moors with 163 rearing young.
Clearly grouse moors are nowhere near this good for Hen Harriers. (Note. They are even worse for Peregrines be almost devoid of nesting birds for 25+ years.)
“RSPB stokes and inflates the figures in its Bird Crime reports because it needs that conflict to continue to make money from it.”
Now RSPB has about 1.2 million members and I rather doubt that the membership fees and any donations from the majority of these folk is dependent on tackling raptor persecution. In fact tackling raptor persecution is the main reason for the existence of RSPB investigations so I suspect persecution probably costs RSPB money. Also it would seriously damage RSPB credibility if it did that. Here is another of those quotes.
“the RSPB and other rich wildlife charities were instrumental in getting as many predators as possible protected. the tsunami wave of predators is now overwhelming many prey species.
a fantastic business plan as the more wildlife is endangered the more money the rich charities get from donations from the gullible public and taxpayers. the RSPB is clearly acting in a conflict of interests.”
This from the gamekeeper who on BBC TV claimed dead eagles and Hen Harriers were “planted” on grouse moors to incriminate innocent keepers. Of course this “great” man has more and more to say about Capercaillie despite what research says.
“deer fences, cold wet weather, loss of habitat disturbance by humans are the usual excuses peddled out to divert attention away from the current tsunami wave of predators that are increasing in populations and ranges, simultaneously causing devastation to many prey species”
This continues
“I have personally witnessed the capercaillie drop from a stable population of around 20 cock capercaillie in just 1 forest, to just 1 cock capercaillie in a single year , which coincided with the arrival of goshawks. ”
or this classic
“Why do so many ecologists tell lies”
This is all because said correspondent believes that the Capercaillie action plan should just be about predator control clearly including currently protected wildlife.
In a “discussion “ about disappearing Hen Harriers when presented with the links to the recent papers by NE and RSPB his answer was quite illuminating
“well well Paul pinocchio Irving. there are none that tell so many lies”
When Harriers do better as they have recently (it is important to remember they are still only at about 15% of the expected population level in England). This is a new correspondent
“The RSPB hate the outstanding success of Hen Harriers on grouse moors. It goes against their agenda of keeping rare birds rare. I realised this over 20 years ago when I left the organisation. I can reliably see these birds on a local grouse moor, ironically one which has been under police and sspca scrutiny many times after malicious complaints. “
Then of course there are the apologists when Hen Harriers are either found killed or tagged birds that “disappear” sadly this is still predictably routine.
“Anything the RSPB can do to discredit grouse moors , anything is ‘suspicious’ . I note that they are also against the moving of hen harriers from grouse moors to the South, probably because they will lose a stick from their armoury ! “
or apparently more reasonable, or is it?
“Can you at least admit that other factors could be the reason. Predation by another raptor. Tags do fail as you admitted just recently with a cuckoo. The position where a tag transmits data is not necessarily where the bird .might have died, it may have died several km’s away. Collision with a wind turbine could certainly have caused the failure this time. And if hen harriers are so important why is the rspb determined to do away with the heather moorlands where harriers are so prevalent?”
This is from a respondent that has used this argument several times despite it being explained that what makes these suspicious is that the tag suddenly stops too and both bird and tag disappear completely. Of course these tags are about 98% reliable on all other species and there are no windfarms in the immediate vicinity. This is almost a standard argument whenever a tagged bird disappears. As to the reference to RSPB and heather moorland, RSPB is in favour of licensing not a ban. He replied.
“Peregrine’s are known to attack and kill other raptors. I stated there are other reasons why these birds are dying. Not every single harrier death has to be suspicious. Tags do stop functioning, anybody who denies this is plain daft. Other species of birds have been found still wearing tags that no longer transmit, why is that never a possibility with harriers/raptors in general. “
Clearly still not getting the reliability of the tags message, yes Peregrines do kill other raptors but when they killed some Hen Harriers the corpses were found because of the then attached radio tags. On the same subject we get this gem.
“The RSPB have killed more birds from mismanagement than all gamekeepers put together! I bet that won’t make the news!! “
Then when asked for proof we get
“what about Lake Vyrnwy and Abernethy and Loch Garton ( sic) where some our last Caper are going to go extinct locally in the next 5-10 years. “
Now I’ve been hearing that tosh about Vyrnwy for well over 20 years and like all the rest it’s simply untrue. He further used the same argument about Capercaillie from earlier (different writer) and said RSPB should be getting a licence to control protected predators (Pine Marten). When asked this.
“Please explain how Capers do perfectly well in all the Scandinavian countries in the presence of the predators you think should be controlled.”
He changed the subject back to Harriers with some unfounded nonsense about tags.
In another discussion about a non story really about raptor SIGHTINGS on a grouse moor in the Yorkshire Post. We get this gem.
“Amazing work by managed estates, well done. Unlike RSPB land, they don’t deserve a penny, as they haven’t got a clue what they’re doing “
Then this
“Sparrowhawks and peregrines are decimating the numbers of kestrels”
and this
“Yep you are another clueless person. The only ones who are torching small mammals and reptiles are the RSPB and National Trust by have very poor conservation work and land management. It is the gamekeepers who have to deal with the fires on these poorly manage areas.”
“The idea of yours and the RSPB on predator control will lead to the loss of many birds species.”
This was marvellously countered however by this
“My local moors and moor-edge have a decent population of curlew, golden plover, snipe, lapwings, dunlin, short-eared owls, skylarks, meadow pipits…plus a few red grouse. No predator control here so you will see corvids, raptors, mustelids, foxes, etc alongside. The main loss of bird species that concerns me is the criminal ‘removal’ of hen harriers and other raptors on ‘managed’ estates. “
Another gem from the same poster as above
“Look at the amount of bird life lost by the RSPB on their reserves.”
Really? Further on we get this well worn untruth.
“Birds of prey are the only birds which are increasing in numbers I wonder why this is .Can any rspb expert explain truthfully”
When told there was no link of course he didn’t believe it and apparently even the BTO have an “agenda” so their data analysis is unacceptable too.
“I suppose I’m right you are a rspb supporter and would rather blame anything but your and your cronies love of raptors I suspect you get a kick from watching poor defenceless birds being ripped apart and eaten alive shame on you“
He is of course supported by others
“There will soon be nothing left but birds of prey. All small birds gone Why can’t the do gooders get that they’re the cause of all the problems ? “
“predators are in many cases above their carrying capacity”
Explain please, he did but it was still nonsense based on a very old paper about Canada Lynx and Hares since shown to be untrue.
This appeared in another thread,
“The huge increase in Red Kites is driving Buzzards from their territories.”
Now I live in mid Wales and we have plenty of both, without conflict. Also in almost all observations Kites defer to Buzzards.
Then finally this from our original correspondent on Capercaillie, much of is a repeat of his earlier diatribe.
“the predators (except Scottish wildcats and kestrels) are all increasing in populations and ranges, simultaneously causing devastation to many prey species.
the tsunami wave of predators is overwhelming the prey species. I am now down to 1 single capercaillie, 1 curlew nest, less than 10 grouse. we have lost all black game, grey partridge, oystercatcher, resident woodcock and lapwings. the predators are running out of prey species big time.
then the natural predator prey cycle will begin when the predator population begins to crash because the more specialist predators cannot change to vegan. the “racist ” lovers of raptors don’t put it on headline news each time a capercaillie goes missing in mysterious circumstances near a grouse moor. to them capercaillie lives and the lives of prey species don’t matter.”
Much of this is tedious nonsense, ignorant of any basic ecology or of predator prey relationships but there are an awful lot of them out there and they are very vocal, its not just the real nutters who think, and I kid you not, that
“Once Otters run out of fish and wildfowl to eat they will come after your pets and children”
it is otherwise reasonable people , yes some from the game lobby have their own agendas but this is something we always need to challenge, even when you are hitting a brick wall.
Some of this is so far from any sort of truth it is funny but rest assured it is also very dangerous and there are many out there who once told it will believe this tosh, even some politicians. I always try to counter it but am often called a liar and worse, now I’m fairly thick skinned But……..
It does make you wonder where these views come from, why these people get it so wrong and what happened to their education. If these folk were remotely right surely predators would have long ago eaten all the available prey and become extinct. When I asked one correspondent this, included that the predator-prey relationship was a dynamic equilibrium I was told
“The balance between prey and predators only works in entirely natural environments”
Now the organisations that represent game shooting are always banging on about how we should talk to each other and that this is THE way forward, yet when I’ve done that on their FB pages it is clearly unwelcome and I usually get quickly banned. As an example on one Moorland Group page after the RSPB annual “ Bird Crime” report was published as part of their counter PR they published a piece about how well raptors are doing nationally, fair enough you might say. I commented that if folk wanted to know more relevant information here it is and gave a link to 3 reports giving the recent status and breeding performances within that AONB and NP. as a result I WAS BANNED. I’m banned from most pro shooting group pages now, so it really seems that they don’t want discussion, unless we agree with them and that’s no discussion at all. We all need to remember that.
I think we should be countering this nonsense, but all views would be welcome.
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Paul is yet another person to add to the list of those who used to shoot but no longer do so. This is remarkably common. As people get older (and presumably wiser) they often give up. Yet how many people take up this pastime in later life? That, surely, is very unusual. I wonder why?
Paul, I hesitate to recommend it, but with all your troubles on Facebook it sounds like Twitter might be the place to air your views more widely.
I quite like FaceBook for all sorts of other reasons and being verbose ( see above) Twitter is a bit limiting. What I find really appalling is not just the sorts of view as illustrated above when things are discussed by many shooters but that nobody from within their ranks challenges these fools. We used to be told that we needed to talk to these folk to achieve compromise ( mainly on grouse moors and raptors) but how do you compromise with the immovable and compromise is impossible when you are within the law and they are largely not. Talking with these folk without making progress is futile and potentially bad for your mental well being.
I stopped shooting in my twenties largely due to moving to work in the Black Country, When I used to beat in the 80’s and 90’s I enjoyed the exercise, seeing some good birds and often enjoyed the company of keepers and beaters but keepers these days seem different, more belligerent, less willing to listen, perhaps more driven and blinkered.
Reluctant to make any excuses for these ‘people’ but I wonder whether their brains haven’t been so fried by all the lead they have consumed they can’t think rationally. Not that I’d want to give them excuses that way, but it may be part of the actual explanation. Is there a way to determine if someone’s brain function has been permanently damaged by Lead / lead?
Despite the damage the metal is known to cause we place no restrictions on those who have been so damaged – driving, owning shotguns, working in the government, chairing regulatory bodies. But if the damage is real and not trivial we should consider such restrictions. Tricky to point out they may not be properly rational without giving them the excuse of ‘I couldn’t help it’. Bit like when people are drunk really, except that it doesn’t wear off as far as I’ve heard.
Well done for persisting with setting the record straight on the nonsense shooters put out. I sense a real shift in attitudes of one time shooting supporters or neutrals who are now sickened by every (well publicised) incident of raptor persecution. But I do still hear people acknowledge gamekeepers are so-and-so’s and in the next breath say – but what they do means we have more curlews. This is the argument that needs a lot of attention.
I heard another classic one this week when I was volunteering at our local Ospreys, which is fun, sometimes very busy and a privilege. The person in question was speaking to another volunteer about Beavers ( there are enclosed beavers on the reserve there to help keep down willow and birch growth.
” Beavers are a menace out in the wild on the Tay Beaver dams have put the temperature up and are making spawning by Salmon and Trout less viable.”
This is crass nonsense or even worse because Beaver dams trap silt meaning gravels immediately below dams are good for spawning, plus the changes in flow create lots of places for young fish to survive , feed and grow. According to some Beavers eat fish and will denude river banks of all trees. again utter BS and wrong.
As with your comment in the main post about capercaillie managing perfectly well in Scandinavia alongside a suite of unkeepered predators, north American and Eurasian beavers have long lived happily in the same catchments as salmonid fish with no ill effect on the fish. Why do the opponents think the UK is such a special case that the two are incompatible here?
It’s pointless engaging with any group who are insular and wilfully blind to the ills within their midst.
Grouse and game shooting will eventually collapse in on itself in my opinion, as one cohort will refuse to, in effect, adapt to a changed world, and another cohort are stifled, probably through threats and coercion, so they cannot speak out. The system, with tied housing, familial links and connections ensure that the status quo is maintained and protected providing, and this is important, there is sufficient political protection.
Nevertheless, it’s just a matter of time as the public awareness erodes the ability for politics to protect the system. Subject to the next General Election, there may be a paradigm shift before the decade is out. The probable sad thing is that the good gamekeepers will be forced to sink alongside the rotten ones, unless at the last moment, when the collision with political reality can’t be avoided, they make a desperate play for survival and speak out.
You’re absolutely right to persist as you do Paul (well done!), it’s called social media for a reason – there’s an audience so the argument that we should ignore it is a big mistake. It’s really scary how easily people can just regurgitate any rubbish, we can’t afford to think nobody believes their lies, smears and propaganda I’ve been shocked at some of the people who have. I’d love to see the conservation organisations do a combined predator awareness project for the public in which they could point out that pine martens have helped red squirrels by eating grey ones, returning otters are probably suppressing mink numbers, sea eagles disperse cormorants and that reintroduced lynx would likely help ground nesting birds by killing foxes the population of which is bolstered by the release of tens of millions of non native pheasants each year. Predation as a natural conservation tool rather than an assault on it as the knuckle draggers would have everyone believe.
Over the last few years I have found a couple of rabbits on nature reserves next to grouse moors which have entrails exposed and I suspect have been filled with poison. It doesn’t take too much imagination to guess who is leaving them…..