A fortnight ago, I set off to give a talk about driven grouse shooting at Walthamstow Wetlands as part of the London Wildlife Festival. I got off the tube at Tottenham Hale (a new experience) and walked to the site to find lots of glum faces as the Saturday and Sunday events had just been cancelled because of the forecast for high winds. It was already quite windy.
I gave my condolences to the organisers and David Lindo and prepared to give my talk as the Friday evening talks were still on. The venue was fully booked but the seats were half empty. We soon heard that the Victoria Line was now not working.
We started the talks and the rain started. As I was lifting an imaginary shotgun to my shoulder, to fire at some imaginary Red Grouse flying past, an enormous thunderclap shook the buiilding. It was a comedy moment never to be repeated. It was now chucking it down outside and a few bedraggled, delayed, audience members arrived but many others must have thought the better of it.
After my talk, I headed off, missing the other talks, as I had an early start the next day, Saturday, as Hen Harrier Day was on Sunday. The rain had cleared, the sun was shining, the tubes were running again, one arrived as soon as I got to the platform. All was well. except that I didn’t know that there had been a power outage affecting much of southern England until I got to St Pancras, naively thinking I might catch an early train, to find that there were no trains running and none was expected for hours. The tannoy suggested that we try Euston Station up the road (along the Euston Road in fact).
When I got to Euston, the station was closed to new entrants and the suggestion was that we try St Pancras. I spotted the logical flaw in that so I went to a nearby Nepalese restaurant (which I know) and had a delicious curry. An hour later, refreshed, I went back to Euston and got on a train to Milton Keynes and organised to be picked up there.
All the preceding was by way of introduction to this short story.
i sat next to a young man and we got chatting, as you do, about delayed trains, rain and power cuts. He told me he was interested in nature and had reared Kestrels and Barn Owls as a kid. He now kept Harris’s Hawks which he fed on rabbits, some of which he shot. Spontaneously, he told me about how lead is a poison and that it’s very impotrant to use non-toxic ammunition to shoot rabbits for his birds and for his family. He even told me that handling lead pellets is a foolish thing to do because the lead can be absorbed through the skin and as a vapour. He had no idea who I was: why should he?
He showed me his BASC membership card and said that he was only a member because of the insurance aspects. I asked whether he knew BASC’s line on lead and he said he didn’t, but he didn’t really care because he had researched it himself.
We shook hands as I left at Milton Keynes. Nice young man. We’ll probably never meet again.
I am sure that BASC’s line on lead is not his line on lead. Here is the BASC line, and here is an old statement that is still on the BASC website. It’s not unusual for organisations to lag behind their members’ views – think The Labour Party, the RSPB and may others.
Please sign this e-petition by Chris Packham calling for a ban of driven grouse shooting.
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So you diligently sat listening to the BASC mans story and viewed his membership card so what was his membership number? So BASC can verify your fishy story.
Also lead shot pellets are covered by graphite and therefore you are not touching exposed lead but if that concerned, use tweezers.
And as a scientist you should no the vapour point of lead is 1750 degrees c so hardly room temperature, but I guess you told him that and not to concern himself about it.
Re your last point about the RSPB lagging behind its members’ views, what should be the priorities of its new chief executive?
John – your comment says far more about you than it does about me.
Maybe you should read this https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-11-poisoning-indoor-ranges.html
Thanks for your comment – made me laugh.
Mark, “a chat on a train” what a load of propaganda rubbish you come out with, about the only true part in your so called chat is the fact that people who fly/keep hawks will not feed them meat shot with lead shot, did he tell you what he shot the rabbit with, shotgun or rifle?
I don’t think there’s a shooting person in the country that would not recognise you,
We as BASC members also receive regular emails about your propaganda stories, yours and Packham’s face are well known on most shooting/farming forums.
Think you will have to try harder to convince the non-gullible.
Countryman – please yourself.
I struggle to see why anyone should immediately assume that Mark Avery’s account is untrue other than from blind prejudice. The point made could equally well be made without confecting a rather convoluted story. Mark is also well known in the birding world but many birders wouldn’t necessarily recognise him, particularly out of context. Indeed, they might not recognise him even in context since, when he spoke at a recent local ornithological conference I also attended, I was asked to point him out before he spoke to some of those present. Casting doubts on the story, however, doesn’t alter the fact that it’s well past time for the use of lead shot to be discontinued.
John Cantelo, sorry I forgot Mark’s a “scientist” and what he says is gospel, never bends the truth to pull-in the gullible does he.
I watched the bird fair video of the interview with Charlie Jacoby, all I can say Mark Avery came across as an arrogant know-it-all bully, he made a comment about him being a scientist then immediately looks to the biased audience for approval and applause, typical traits of a bully, even Packham tried to rein him in by asking the audience not to applaud.
He is a very manipulative man and the gullible are easily lead, scientists have got it wrong before.
Countryman – thanks for your comment. Got a scientific point to make? Or just a general slagging off of scientists in general and this one in particular?
No doubt Countryman you’d object to dentists making statements about teeth just because they’re dentists? You’re right though there’s some very dodgy ‘science’ about principally from your lot. A bizarre ‘study’ that’s fed grouse to buzzards, claims that has not been picked up by type of analysis used to examine the diet of wild buzzards and therefore they could be eating lots of grouse and impacting on estates after all! This is called moving the goalposts to get the answer you want, otherwise known as talking bollocks https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0221404&fbclid=IwAR2H7d7z7OEdmui2THGufM8mmkqCaMP8-_pulTtfldlbNzM5OKRR7l6SM2Y. And let’s not forget the recent ‘paper’ claiming that the very comprehensive EMBER report on muirburn’s effect of water bodies was flawed in its methodology. What the authors of the critical ‘paper’ failed to mention was that they were sponsored by grouse moor proponents! The authors of the EMBER report only wrote up the results of their work, they didn’t criticize grouse shooting or make any recommendations, they merely stated they had provided data to help inform land managers. But of course the information was all that was needed to show among other things to those who know that muirburn buggers up waterways for most wildlife especially salmonid fish! So EMBER had to be attacked and the professionalism of its authors slandered, good and conscientious researchers. Grouse moors are corrupt and corrupting. Your support groups..sorry forums, must be a great comfort for those trying to bolster each other’s delusions in the face of withering reality. https://water.leeds.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/36/2019/08/Contextualising-final.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1uyEpN30sxJeH1UgD61jAqzRrhGxeRVBwfpsF0zHLi8xQYe6hMXXx6j1Y
Re- Les Wallace, Here we go again, so a dentist as never got it wrong? And I am glad you said principally and not solely, meaning that “your lot” also get it wrong? Or is it the case of any papers written on your side of the fence are gospel and anything near shooting/land owners is the work of the devil, well you carry on believing what you are told to believe and I will use life’s experiences, ears and eyes to tell me the real truth about our countryside and shooting (my lot).
The driven grouse shooting ban being pushed by Avery and friends looks very much like a class war against so called toffs, I say this because it appears WJ seem happy to let walked up grouse shooting to continue? They are also happy with small scale walked up pheasant shooting, both being affordable to the working man, driven grouse and pheasant shooting on the other hand being more the realms of wealthy people (toffs) I may add that I am a working man, well retired now.
I will admit there are bad apples in all walks of life and shooting has its share but to tar all people with links to shooting with the same brush, as some people do, is wrong and typical of the blinkered, brainwashed followers of Avery and Packham who in reality just want ALL shooting banned.
So lets say you get driven grouse shooting banned, tell me who will manage the moors?
Countryman – the land doesn’t need to be managed (ask it!) and certaqinly not badly managed as it is now. Public oenership would be a good escape route for the land owners who are only wrecking the uplands for money – they could get a nice fat cheque and spend it on driven pheasant shooting (which i do not want banned but would like to see greatly reformed – as would many in shooting, they tell me).
Class war? That’s a desperate thought, Countryman.
No, it’s a classless battle. One that’s about liberating your burnt over, crime ridden moors and allowing them to go into ecological succession so that they can manage themselves for the benefit of all of us.
And judging by Packham’s 79,000 signature’s in just two weeks, there are loads of country folk who have the same wish – be they toffs or non-toffs.
Actually I do know (from uncomfortable personal experience) that dentists can get it wrong, but I’d still trust them far more than ye olde barber or blacksmith who as a sideline took out bad teeth with a pair of pliers. I have read a tremendous amount of reports and studies from both sides and also independent ones (such as EMBER), and I’ve done my best to read then critically and consider them thoughtfully. I’ve even read ‘Understanding Predation’ the woeful document trying to rationalize rejecting scientific findings that aren’t the the field sport community’s benefit. There’s not much of a comparison and even a non scientist like me can winkle out flaws and inconsistencies. Before the Gift of Grouse published its interpretation of an ecological survey of some Scottish grouse moors, I surmised that they’d naughtily count up birds found on parts of the estate that weren’t actually grouse moor – to give the impression there was far more biodiversity on them than there really was. When GoG produced their statement on the study ’81 and Flying…’ that’s EXACTLY what they had done. I don’t have half an alphabet after my name either Countryman, but I could still see through that. Here though Countryman is an absolute ‘classic’ that I think will be right up your street – https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/d64b93_91883a8731814fa082da9ad32aa8e9a2.pdf
You like stories don’t you Mark, well here’s one for you, make your own mind up if it’s a true story or not???
A farmer I know who is a keen shooting man but also a conservationist, his farm runs to around a thousand acres, they put down around 5000 Pheasnts, it’s a family run affair and they have small driven days and let a couple of days a year to help pay for the birds and food.
As I said he is very much a nature lover and conservationist, the land holds a large variety of birds and wildlife including Buzzards and a pair of Goshawks, he asked me not to shoot the rabbits as they are a food source for the above and hopefully they will leave his pheasants alone, he does not put Partridges down but as turned large areas over to encourage English Partridges as he likes to see them about and the rough areas also help hold his pheasants and are a great food and cover source for all manner of birds and wildlife.
Now the ironic thing is he makes very little from the shoot, the lose of growing land he turned over to encourage English Partridge also costs him but he as told me that if he is unable to carry on running his Pheasant shoot the way he wants he will put these areas under the plough to earn money, he also likely to ask me to bring the rabbit numbers down, I am not a scientist, I have no letters before or after my name, I have not done any studies on this farm but I know what my eyes and ears tell me, land managed for shooting are some of the best areas for birds and other wildlife.
Hope you like my story Mark ; )
Countryman – how lovely, you should write your own blog. You’d get a huge audience I expect.
Sounds perfectly feasible to me and I have no great problem with that situation – because, you see, I’m not trying to end all shooting (remember?).
Re- murray marr, By that outburst you sound like another expert, so tell us all what will happen to the heather if its not managed?
Packham’s petition, make me laugh, UK population approximately 65 million and Packham as got 80k signatures in two weeks, well with his high profile he should be on 500k, they must be getting desperate as they are now asking people to put posters up to try and get more signatures, don’t think the public are as concerned as you and others who have been brainwashed by Avery and Packham.
No Countryman, I’m like you – no letters after my name.
The heath habitat will diversify; red grouse numbers will reduce to a natural level and the new scrub growth will allow black grouse to colonise. All good for a nice bit of walked up shooting. All good for carbon capturing unburnt peat. All good for a nice bit of walking and viewing of unshot raptors.
“Brainwashed”. That’s funny! I was aware of the crimes of the DGS scumbags 40 years before I’d even heard of Chris Packham and Mark Avery.
Thankfully, those here can see right through your pretentious bullshit. Countryman my arse!
Re- Coop, Tut, tut, tut, rattle out of pram, you really need to calm down dear.
Tell me is that a scientific term (bullshit) no I didn’t think so, your much to childish to be a scientist.
And thankfully I can see right through your ultimate agenda but it looks like you are being lead by the nose up the garden path, Mark & co do not want to get shooting stopped, so where do you go from there?
Sorry you did not appreciate my post as much as Mark did, never mind.
Good luck with the petition, Countryman ; )
Look it up. “Bullshit” defines everything you stand for perfectly.
Re- murray marr, and all the birds and bees will live happily ever after in the land of utopia.
But you agree that in that land there will be plenty of game birds available to be shot legally for the pot and/or for proper sport?
Far more chance than they will as things are now – https://markavery.info/2018/02/12/guest-blog-protecting-scotlands-honeybees-callum-macgregor/